I could easily be over at least 2 - 3 ounces over on the oil. The expansion valve(Tx) is in the car at the inlet line to the evaporator with compressors you best get advice from an ac specialist shop as the differences could be the gas that it pumps some systems use R12 and others use R134a or later gas yes R1234yf Freon gas can be replaced by R134a; the newer systems were designed with this in mind so no, there will be no damage to the compressor but some time in . R134a is NOT less efficient than R12 Actually R134a is more efficient. June 21, 2022 difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve . asia pacific stevie awards 2021. gin, amaretto cocktail. Yes, this was a smokers car. There is NO reason to retrofit a vehicle to R-134a as long as the R-12 system is cooling properly and contains a normal charge of refrigerant. And by matching the correct amount of R134a to use in a given vehicle, correcting the superheat of the expansion valve (if necessary), you can in some manner nearly balance or match the amount of heat drawn out by the evaporator and released by the condenser. Is there a graph? Table 1 summarizes the technical characteristics of three potential R134a alternatives. Inasmuch as R134a has a global warming potential thats over 1000 times more threatening than carbon dioxide, its better than R12. Kommentare . We've updated our forums!Click here to visit the new forum, Year: 1983Make: MercedesModel: 240DEngine Size: 2.4Refrigerant Type: R12Ambient Temp: 90Pressure Low: 35Pressure High: ?Country of Origin: United States, Hi, this is my first post, so please take it easy on the noob. The newer valves and switches will work with both refrigerants. and feeds it through an expansion valve. You do not have to split up the 5-6 oz of oil and add it to each component, just simply put it all in the compressor as it will move throughout the whole system once the system is operational. After the optimum refrigerant charge is determined the car should be test driven to check for performance of the system. The original expansion valves work very well with R134a. "Howdy, Folks!" . The OEM spec is 2300 rpm @ 12.6v (engine stopped fully charged battery). If you you dont have the free time to play then you are better off to pay a technician. The non-flammables can have R22 type gas which is not compatible with most rubber hoses or they have gases that contribute to global warming. I'm going to check the condensor is way clean too. There is more to check.The evaporator must be clean as well as the condensor - was this a smoker's car?You should check the water control valve for the heater core. The condenser water inlet temperature and flow rate are controlled with the use of a . The higher the ambient temperature the higher the high side pressure. Once you have replaced the OEM condensor with a PF unit, you will need to make custom hoses to mate with your OEM system. However, take note that R134a refrigerants are manufactured specifically for automotive air conditioners. Big . That would be the "black death" syndrome. The global warming potential measures the amount of heat trapped by any gas compared to the amount of heat trapped by the same amount of carbon dioxide. R12 is simply too expensive for a 25+ year old A/C system. If your cars system has a sufficient condenser design and air flow to expel the greater amount of heat extracted by R134a, then by all means you should convert over when the time comes. This chart has a column of ambient (outside) air temperatures on one side and a corresponding range of high side pressures on the other side. The bad thing is I don't know what to do about it. Not osmosis, but you know what I mean). Since the hose is the stock hose, you cannot tell what refrigerant is inside. Replacement expansion valve for R134a or R12 A/C refrigerants, with O-ring connections. 3) A/C Compressor Always On. Usually, mechanics charge around $200 for conversion. evarporator, expansion valve plus flushing out the full system and replacing all the o rings. Besides R134a there are some other refrigerants that are approved to replace R12 and there is a long list of refrigerants that are not approved. Therefore, its most suitable for both commercial and domestic environments. If ambient is 90 (today) and the output of the condensor is 110, that's pretty good isn't it? In short, NO! The current expansion valve is FF - 1/4 - C. Is it neccesary to replace this valve? Refrigerators generally utilize R22, R32, or 410A-based coolants as their cooling agent. It won't be optimal, though.On some/many valves, you can adjust them, but that might make matters worse unless you really know what you're doing (which I don't!).RegardsGeorge. Anyone know what happens when an R12 expansion valve is used in a system charged with R134A? |. R12 is CFC: Even though R12 is one of the most commonly used refrigerants, it is CFC. Gnats & mosquitos will clog deep. I'm putting r12 back in my system, but all of the valves I can for the application (1990 jeep grand wagoneer) say r134a on them. I bought a relay to put on it connected to the compressor clutch. 5. There are three different refrigerants officially sanctioned by the EPA for automotive usage: r-12, r-. The flammables have hydrocarbons. The Wikipedia explanation for expansions valves cited in Frank's thread says that the gas inside the bulb in the metering valve is the same as the refrigerant in the system. Flush with a garden hose - do not use a high pressure washer - you can bend the fins flat & damage the condensor.B. But with an R4, better too much than too little.3) A TXV optimized for 134a will be ok with R12.4) The airflow across the condensor is crucial to good performance. 37 in 2005 tacoma, R134A. Recovery & flushing is the only way out of an oil overcharge in your vehicle.B. If there is no pusher fan, and you have the room, put one in. Does it matter - assuming both are new & uncontaminated? Please enter a password for your user account. The aux fan seems to be working fine - it switches on occassionally. J.Harris said: Or if you want to do it like they do in Mexico you can use propane, it's an excellent refrigerant but highly flammable. The butylcellusolve or the citrus solvent will dissolve the carcass in a few minutes. But as there's not a big difference, people say you can suffice with either. You may need to adjust the valve in a bit to get desired superheat. Some 1993 and older R12 systems aren't as 'compatible' as you'd think to switch over. Your old hoses of course will not fit. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve why is miles raney not on homestead rescue June 21, 2022. manila mayor candidates 2022 Since there is only about a 10% difference between R-12 and R-134a, the expansion valve being self-compensating really doesn't make that much difference. R12 is otherwise called dichlorodifluoromethane is a colorless gas (chlorofluorocarbon halomethane (CPC) that is used as an aerosol spray propellant and a refrigerant, and is soluble in organic solvents. Related products. You do not need to replace the expansion valve in most cases. Neuro spine Super Speciality Clinic - Above Apollo Pharmacy, Bangarpet Circle, Kolar - Bangarpet Road, Kolar Town. We are an automotive mechanic blog that helps mechanics and car users to find the most recent and accurate technical and repair information for their cars. A lower GWP alternative to R-134a had to be found and thus we have the new 1234yf. Thus, when the system is running, condensing the CO2 is not a problem. When the ambient air temps get above 80F the gauge readings can run a bit higher on the high side and lower on the low side when using R134a. For R12, its mineral oil. Some cars have both an engine coolant temp switch & a refrigerant temp switch, others only the refrigerant switch. Its highest value is 1. If it splashes inside the eye, it could lead to a serious eye problem. The only material difference between automotive A/C and a window A/C unit or refrigerator is that in the home application, the components are all inside the same rectangular box, but in the automotive application, the components are distributed throughout the car. To bless the system the technician should attach a R134a sticker somewhere in the engine compartment to note the car is using R134a. At the time I thought nothing of it, but now I am thinking maybe that is contributing to the system not working as well as it could. Thanks again. Make sure visiually that no large gaps exist that would allow the air to bypass the condensor on the way to the radiator.B. Just because the radiator does not boil people assume that the cooling system is ok. Besides, R134a refrigerant was manufactured after R12 was banned to help reduce the harshness of the old chemical (R12) on the ozone layer. Pound for pound R134a is a more efficient refrigerant than R12, however it runs at higher pressures in some aspects and therefore requires more effective condensing. After the system has been tested out it should be checked for leaks. Before R12 was replaced with R134a in 1995, it was mostly used in trucks and cars. Shorting the plug for the refrigerant switch should run the fan when the compressor is on. But, what is considered a good temperature differential across the condensor? You'll want the expansion valve matched to whatever refrigerant you're using. How dumb!I will jumper the aux fan and redo the test. The R134a compressor has a 1/8" step in on the high side port. Look at where the lines will end up. Compared with the cost-performance ratio, R507 is 30-40% . Sense ells no existirem. With the oil leaking out and being told all sorts of things about how these compressors don't have a sump etc, I wanted to be on the safe side. Recomanem consultar les pgines web de Xarxa Catal per veure tota la nostra oferta. R134a and R12 are among the most popular types of refrigerants. Figure 2 shows the different phases and pressures the refrigerant . Instead of using R12, its preferable to use R134a because it is very easy to find in the market, its sold at an affordable price, and is environmentally friendly. The car never overheats, if that has any import. 05-25-2017 02:14 AM. Minor adjustments to the expansion valve and other controls may be necessary for some plans. Safe but sorry! If 50 degrees across the cond. Also, R134a cylinders are light-blue in color. Different correction factors are applied to other refrigerants. I have one can left, so maybe a plan can be made. Expansion Valves Catalog E-1, July 2012. Bad Car A/C Expansion Valve Symptoms. Look deep into the fins. I'm thinking I might have put too much oil in the system - everywhere i read had a different amount - the manufacturer of the compressor, the MB factory service manual, online forums. In this study, without the need for major modifications to the bus air conditioner, the variation of the ejector dimensions according to different parameters has been investigated in the case of using the R1234yf, R1234ze(E), or R600a refrigerants, which may be a substitute for R134a as a refrigerant due to . Where would I get some basic info on it, I know nothing about it. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." System has been working fine for a year. If your car does not have a high pressure cut-out switch in the AC system then youll need to have one installed (call us if you need help). -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a, Bohica, You say the drop in performance is not linear with too much oil. This would become an expensive investment for a repair or service station to have unique dedicated equipment for every type of alternative refrigerant. The problem with using an approved alternative refrigerants other than R134a is that when the system is serviced it requires certain types of fittings, labels and dedicated equipment. Reattach the hose lines using new R134a compatible o-rings, lightly lubricate with compressor oil. Read on for more information about using automotive r134a in a refrigerator and vice versa. With R134a you do not rely on the site glass. These differences in the valve size can be attributed to the correlation of the cooling capacity with the enthalpy difference and the mass flow, which in . . ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. The best oil that runs well with R134a is PAG oil or Polyalkylene Glycol. Plus, not releasing the chemical into the air is morally justifiable. Rules governing changing from the former to the latter differ between countries. 1.5 ounces - hmmm. I remember I had the wrong seals and it leaked some oil, so I put some more in.Bohica - I tested the pressures. Osuagwu Solomon is a certified mechanic with over a decade of experience in the mechanic garage, and he has over five years of experience in the writing industry. As noted, measure up front as best as you can to get as close to the aftermarket dim. Have a look in the FAQ Section, and look for "Fan clutches & testing them". Since you will be using less R134a than R12 you do not want to rely on the driers site glass to determine if the system is full. You can use this space to go into a little more detail about your company. There are other refrigerants: some of which may work, some of which dont work, some of which will destroy your a/c system and some of which are dangerous. Pray I can let some oil out of the compressor without losing my precious R12. The next piece of equipment to track down leaks is a leak sniffer. There are two hoses listed, R-12 64-53-1-377-821 for $72.50, and R-134a 64-53-8-391-051 fro $262.50. Below are the major differences between R134a and R12: The chemical composition of R12 and R134a differ. Performance doesn't seem to have improved. The system has been previously converted to R-134a. (On firewall where A/C lines go into cab.) ing the expansion valve, a maximum opening superheat of 7F, and a standard factory air test superheat setting. The condensor airflow drops off as the fan clutch dies slowly. A/C receiver difference between R12 and R134a? Rules governing changing from the former to the latter differ between countries. Mark Baker R-401b is the mixture by weight of 61% R22, 11% R-152a and 28% of R-124. I know this is bad, etc, and deposits on the metal can act as insulators. Its chemical symbol is CH2FCF3. So that indicates it is cooling well there doesn't it? What is usually sniffed are all the connections in the system: hoses and compressor, condenser, drier, expansion valve and evaporator fittings. Heres some important advice Whenever you notice your R12 refrigerant is leaking, turn off all flames and open the doors so it can escape to the open atmosphere. R134a requires a different oil. Any advice appreciated. 5. look at the difference! I have some experience with auto a/c but not too much. R134a has a smaller molecule than R12 so R134a will leak out sooner than R12. 10,000BTU conduction heating? But as there's not a big difference, people say you can suffice with either. Formula: (R12 Charge Specification x 0.9) - 0.25 lbs. Its cylinders are colored white. R134a has the chemical formula CF3CH2F and is known as tetrafluoroethane. They plug all the time. It can be used applications like walk-in coolers, food and dairy display cases, domestic refrigerators, and beverage dispensers and vending machines. They would then make short "jumper hoses" to connect to the existing stock hoses, refit your old fan if there is a "pusher" fan, and recharge to specs. He used thermostatic expansion valve and Capillary tube for analysis with R12. Low refrigerating effect per pound: In comparison to other refrigerants, the refrigerating effect of R12 per pound is low. . Expansion Valve. As per their results . When the temperature is reduced to-7C or below, the plants ability to cool the airdrops significantly. In more serious, it could result in cardiac irregularities or death. R12, on the other hand, is called chlorofluorocarbon (CFC). R134a was selected as a replacement refrigerant for R12 because R12 contains chlorine and has a major effect to ozone layer depletion. Agram a retevis rt22 password i bastrop county district clerk records el material que oferim als nostres webs. I dont know why the cost difference between compressors is so huge, though. The general practice of charging the system with 15% less refrigerant adds to the thermal deficiency of R134a. The pressure at low temperatures is nearly the same between 12 and 134a. There are significant differences between R12, R134a, and R513A, which must be considered when handling, processing, applying, or retrofitting with these refrigerants. Above this temperature, the saturation pressure of R134a is higher than that of R12; below, it is lower. Interestingly, theres one oil type that works perfectly with both types of refrigerants. . This is not to say that one of these small retro-fit kits cant be used, however to be used wisely. VerticalScope Inc. All Rights Reserved. With that said, I would source the TXV from another source such as NAPA just to avoid any problems. This would be a custom install, there is no "drop-in" condensor upgrade for that car.Check for proper fan operation, and clean the air path on both the condensor & radiator. . Anyone know what happens when an R12 expansion valve is used in a system charged with R134A? R134a has a smaller molecule than R12 so R134a will leak out sooner than R12. Yes it will work with either Refrigerant! R12 and R22 are both now banned by the EPA in the United States. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. Hmmmm. With new R12 no longer being manufactured, the market price soared to $100/pound. You are indeed 20% out of the OEM spec for cooling. "Jerky Locker" LMAO I am using that one in the future!Florida = BUGS! It can be used applications like walk-in coolers, food and dairy display cases, domestic refrigerators, and beverage dispensers and vending machines. of refrigerant insulation tape. Skin contact: If the R134a (liquid) comes in contact with your skin, it could cause a burn. Nice to use new gadgets! Is that reasonable?Vent airflow is good, I think. Therefore, the higher the factor of the chemical (compound), the greater its effect on global warming. So if you car has a large amount of rubber hose, such as a 40 feet with the 911, then you will be re-charging the system often and that is expensive no matter which refrigerant you use. 1) Warm Air From Vents. Do I leave the orignal condensor in, etc?Thanks. So if you car has a large amount of rubber hose, such as a 40 feet with the 911, then you will be re-charging the system often and that is expensive no matter which refrigerant you use. What was the ambient when you took that reading?Jumpering the aux fan is a common thing here in the desert. Maybe a jerky locker.I cleaned the condensor with the off the shelf ac cleaner stuff from Home Depot that I used on my home evaporator. Hence, let us continue to fix it. It is perhaps possible to locate a unit with a company that purchases close out or distressed merchandise. Is that why expansion valves are specific to R12 or R134A? However, if it is taken close to a fire flame or any electrical heating element, it disintegrates into toxic products. Please enter a valid email address for yourself. Is the information not applicable to the old Pantera system? Next I'll jumper the aux fan. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. This can be very very expensive. R-134a can actually cool better than R-12 in a well designed R-134a system as it has better thermoconductive properties, but all the high pressure issues have to be addressed.But even when these cars were brand new, didn't cool worth a damned, recall almost dying in one in Las Vegas at the time, but a good way to lose weight with gallons of perspiration pouring out, just don't let that drip on the seats, that is inappropriate. We chose to use 5-6 ounces of oil to be on the safe side: 3-4 ounces for the compressor, 1 oz of oil for the drier and another ounce of oil for system losses. You'll get marginally better performance out of the change as the expansion valve is matches the refrigerant characteristics. If you find any of these conditions you will want to liquid flush (with dedicated AC flush solution) all the lines, condensers, evaporator (remove the expansion valve) before you proceed further. R12 and R134 are of different chemistry. This refers to BTU's (heat) moved per pound of refrigerant moved. But as there's not a big difference, people say you can suffice with either. The Main change in the system is the expansion valve. The sticker typically has a place to note the amount of refrigerant used, the type of oil and amount of oil, the technicians sign off or name and the date of the conversion. The only difference I can imagine would be the recharge connection. The global warming potential of R134a is 1430. . In most cases, the systems used have varied components, designs, and service ports. However, it was found to be a very bad gas for the environment. Ensure you contact a professional mechanic to do the work for you so you dont end up incurring more costs for yourself. Tamb oferim en VOSC el contingut daquestes sries que no es troba doblat, com les temporades deDoctor Who de la 7 en endavant,les OVA i els especials de One Piece i molt ms. R134a is called tetrafluoroethane (HFC). R-12 to R-134a Conversion. If your a/c system is empty/low on refrigerant, if your system has a leak or if you need to open the system, then now is the time to decide which refrigerant you want to use. CR4P). Hope this helps. Its not that difficult but the procedures of evacuation, charging and testing should be done by a licensed a/c technician that is experienced with R134a and your particular car. Disconnect the two hose lines to the compressor, protect the ends from getting dirty. Answer: OK, I'll bite. R12 is heavier than R134a and has smaller molecules. The old compressor used R12 and the new unit will be R134a. R12 was once used in many air conditioning units as a refrigerant or cooling agent. video clubhouse baseball; nick fairley draft profile; ben davis work pants The major reason for the replacement of R12 with R134a was to curb future greenhouse effects. Your average garage that works on a/c on the side probably would not have this. Also the new quick connect fittings for the high & low side. Condensers designed to release greater amounts of heat help to expel the greater amount of heat which R134a removes from the cars interior. Further production of R12 was banned in some developed countries by the Montreal Protocol because of its harsh effect on the ozone layer. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. When you add fluorescent tracer dye to with the refrigerant oil it helps to track down leaks that push oil out of the system. But R22 is almost equally damaging. You can spend long evenings reading about the differences between the two refrigerants. Though you can purchase 12 or 16 ounce cans of R134a from local retailers it is very difficult to measure out the correct amount into your system. Your decision could be made based on economics, environmental concerns, or both. Large temperature difference between expansion valve inlet and outlet oReplace expansion valve Air . It is usually sold under the brand name, Freon 12. They have no moving parts. Debug the condensor (I am a computer nerd after all!)3. With R12 you use to check to see if the site glass was full, if it had bubbles it meant you had a low charge. Thanks for the input. bokoen1 hoi4 the great purge / meryl and maks dancing with the stars / difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. Its duty is to convert toxic gasses produced by the engine into A brake cleaner is a powerful solvent for cleaning dirt from the brakes and other car components. Before we mentioned that you can add approximately 5-6 ounces of ester oil to the compressor. Right now you know you have a bit too much, but with a CR4P compressor this is an insurance policy. Attach the R134a charge port adaptors, there are two types.. one of which you need to remove the old R12 valve cores. If liquid refrigerant were to exit the evaporator. You do not need to replace every o-ring in the system, but if you happen to open a connection that has an o-ring you should replace the old o-ring with one that is compatible with R134a and lubricate the o-ring with ac oil. Besides, its technology has been tested and trusted. Hence, the effect of R12 on global warming is up to 10,000 times higher than carbon dioxide. Environmental Impact: When R134a escapes into the atmosphere, it contributes to global warming. Is there a source of valves by, say, eaton number? I cleaned the evap as best I could, if that is what you are getting at. Looks like a couple of things happening here1) 80's vintage Eurocars were not "meat lockers". RULES for AOP - Owner Assistance and Contractors, Energy Efficiency and Building Performance Discussion NEW, Carnak Zone/Locked Areas - For Professional Member Only, How To Become a Pro and Rules For Pro Members, Pro Forum: Refrigerants and EPA regulations **NEW, Pro Forum: Residential Refrigeration and Appliances **NEW, Pro Forum: Equipment Recalls and Bulletins **NEW, Pro's Forum: Building Science Discussions, Educational Forums - Open for all in the industry, Welcome to HVAC-Talk's Educational Forums, How to Submit Links, Articles and Quiz Questions, Frequently Asked Questions About Submissions, Physics, Thermodynamics, Fluid Flow and Combustion, Educational, Training & Reference Information, Manufacturer's Technical Information Links, Electrical Theory, Circuits and Electronics, HVACR Equipment, Components & Accessories, Accessories Humidifiers, Air Cleaners, HRUs, Fans, Filters, etc. There are R134a specific valves that operate at a slightly different pressure, but not for any "old" automotive application that I'm aware of. #4. PaulJerky King -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. Typically 5 to 6 ounces of a/c oil is adequate but this may vary depending upon the car. A slow loss of cooling at city speeds is usually related to condensor capacity & airflow issues.You could improve the cooling capacity by replacing the condensor with a high effeciency parallel flow unit. R12 was once used in many air conditioning units as a refrigerant or cooling agent. Generally you follow the refrigerant flow moving from connection to connection, component to component, and you sniff the a/c vents to check for evaporator leaks as well. However, the supply houses don't indicate a difference. However, theyre still used in older plants, systems, and the automotive industry. 34 in 70 series w/ R12 in 100+ Tucson, AZ summer heat w/ hd-t, w/ 13B-T is was unbearable about 31 at vent w/ R12.
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